VDW Van Der Speil
- Thread starter Bobajobber
- Start date
) - definitely back to the drawing board for me then 
!!!
Pingman
Colt
Pitmatic
Sure Bob will confirm when he drops in to look at the thread, solving that though hasn't took me forward quite how I expected though but I am enjoying the thread, I think Bob and every one else is right you need the form books and the other tools to crack this.
The battlement and strombulas ones are the next to look at but without the form I can't sus out certain things.
I may have missed the opportunity now but one thing I will agree with Bob on, is the Fineform.
I bought all Clive Holt's books and yes he did have winners but if you bet all the top 2, the trickster, the reverse forcasts and finally the all the other systems he cam up with you would have been poor.
He always mentioned the phone service and letter but I think it was 20 pound a pop back in those days and my kids needed feeding, the bills needed paying so it was a relief really that I couldn't get involved.
The best part of the advert was the De Tomaso car he said he drove i think, in Lancs I had a Vauxhall chevette from work so wouldn't even had the space to park one!
Sure Bob will confirm when he drops in to look at the thread, solving that though hasn't took me forward quite how I expected though but I am enjoying the thread, I think Bob and every one else is right you need the form books and the other tools to crack this.
The battlement and strombulas ones are the next to look at but without the form I can't sus out certain things.
I may have missed the opportunity now but one thing I will agree with Bob on, is the Fineform.
I bought all Clive Holt's books and yes he did have winners but if you bet all the top 2, the trickster, the reverse forcasts and finally the all the other systems he cam up with you would have been poor.
He always mentioned the phone service and letter but I think it was 20 pound a pop back in those days and my kids needed feeding, the bills needed paying so it was a relief really that I couldn't get involved.
The best part of the advert was the De Tomaso car he said he drove i think, in Lancs I had a Vauxhall chevette from work so wouldn't even had the space to park one!
Bobajobber
Mare
I think that
T
Thomas was possibly pointing to the fact that Hotform gave 4 questions and VDW stepped forward with a reply.
1) How can you tell the Class horse in the race?.
2) When is it at it’s peak?
3) How many horses are worth considering in the race?.
4) Can you tell when a horse is ‘poised’?
We also know from Roushayd's evaluation that VDW had told us that the horse was not ready, but that something inside his last race triggered the fact that he was ready 'poised' to win and it was the trainer next move that would determine if he was going to win or not.
So from this point of view, if a horse has all the tick
We often hear Paul Nicholls talking about his horses form and their weight as a measure of it, chasers have traditionally been big horses, I mean look at the Mackeson again, you will see it , but with this flat bred influence, may be this has some significance to the importance over the bigger obstacles and the carrying of weight.
They weigh Greyhounds, not sure if that is anything to do with filling them up before a race to slow them down ;-)
1) How can you tell the Class horse in the race?.
2) When is it at it’s peak?
3) How many horses are worth considering in the race?.
4) Can you tell when a horse is ‘poised’?
We also know from Roushayd's evaluation that VDW had told us that the horse was not ready, but that something inside his last race triggered the fact that he was ready 'poised' to win and it was the trainer next move that would determine if he was going to win or not.
So from this point of view, if a horse has all the tick
We often hear Paul Nicholls talking about his horses form and their weight as a measure of it, chasers have traditionally been big horses, I mean look at the Mackeson again, you will see it , but with this flat bred influence, may be this has some significance to the importance over the bigger obstacles and the carrying of weight.
They weigh Greyhounds, not sure if that is anything to do with filling them up before a race to slow them down ;-)
Chesham
Sire
See Just a few thoughts VDW or otherwise.
On another part of the Forum this morning, we were discussing Pre Race, Nonios Wolverhampton 3.40.
It would be good to discuss another horse pre race who has the same attributes 1,2,3,4
On another part of the Forum this morning, we were discussing Pre Race, Nonios Wolverhampton 3.40.
It would be good to discuss another horse pre race who has the same attributes 1,2,3,4
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Pitmatic
Colt
Hi
mtoto - I think the British Library does have an archive of the SCHB, but I'm not completely certain as their listing is for "Sporting Chronicle Weekly Handicap Book Or Racing Record". Unfortunately I can't determine from the details accompanying the listing exactly what it is. When I next visit the library I'll ask for some advice about that particular archive and will see what is said (The archive is from 1904 onwards and does have an issue number(s) - which from memory I think the SCHB did have).I was also thinking that it might be a worthwhile exercise to try to obtain the relevant selection boxes for the particular races mentioned by VDW.
It'll probably be sometime in January when I next visit the library, so will try to suss it out then (for a future visit, as all items have to be ordered in advance of a visit).
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mtoto
Gelding
Bobajobber Thanks for the reply re the other horses and also thanks to
Pitmatic for coming back. For some reason I just assumed the list would have been in the daily as I can't remember ever seeing a list of selections for races to come in the SCHB but it all was a long time agoIt is easy to dismiss anything when you do not know anything about it, which I have said right from the beginning of my journey, in essence it is complicated, but understood you realise just how simple it is, but clever, like any GOOD rating , it takes time to compile, this is the HARD WORK aspect of the formula
Have to admit I don't really understand the above but I will try to answer. It isn't me that was saying the rating was flawed but VDW . If a race can't automatically be said to be a drop in class because it carries less prize money, logic say the more prize money can't automatically be a rise in class. This then has to bring the AR into doubt on occasions. I just asked what other think VDW would have used if/when this happened.
Be Lucky
mick
Sire
I am not a fan of adding points for this or that but if you are going to do so then the correct weighting for each aspect is a very important part of the whole ,taking the above example shown by
Pingman the author awards 6pts for a dist win 2pts for a course win the former judged three times more important?.
My first introduction to class came pre vdw via Paul Majors book and he offered a simple but very good rating based on the last three runs and 3 aspects class, fin position and weight. The biggest single pts award was 50pts for a drop in class (based on lto run) 30pts where given for each win during past 3 runs so the ultimate 111 gave 90pts far out weighting the class rating.? Of course the final rating was only a numerical expression making for clearer judgement of all three aspects combined in comparison with the other contenders but an interesting weighting.?
VDW Advised working the better class races with one of the reasons being the contenders are more consistent,so if we reverse this then the class aspect of Majors rating is likely to have a greater impact (on the final fig) in the lower grade contests.?
Pingman the author awards 6pts for a dist win 2pts for a course win the former judged three times more important?.My first introduction to class came pre vdw via Paul Majors book and he offered a simple but very good rating based on the last three runs and 3 aspects class, fin position and weight. The biggest single pts award was 50pts for a drop in class (based on lto run) 30pts where given for each win during past 3 runs so the ultimate 111 gave 90pts far out weighting the class rating.? Of course the final rating was only a numerical expression making for clearer judgement of all three aspects combined in comparison with the other contenders but an interesting weighting.?
VDW Advised working the better class races with one of the reasons being the contenders are more consistent,so if we reverse this then the class aspect of Majors rating is likely to have a greater impact (on the final fig) in the lower grade contests.?
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OnTheNod
Mare
I remember one contributor wrote in to the h'cap book saying he found the C/D part helped him alot, i know at the time had been looking into this a bit from the Desert Hero example off a low weight, and this aspect helped me no end but i only looked into on the flat racing.
mick
Sire
Clear outs can be a curse i had all the papers, form books and my own notes stored for years but allowed myself to be nagged into binning the lot,something i now regret.! I have kept the last edition of The Sporting Life perhaps to remind me of how a proper racing daily should be presented.Yes they wereChesham i use to have it on a fair number of occasions wish i had kept a few.
Pitmatic
Colt
Hi
mtoto and
Chesham
I too can't remember the selection box in the SCHB, but VDW was very specific that it was the selection box in the SCHB and not the box in the Sporting Life that was used to find Desert Hero; Gaye Brief; Badsworth Boy; and Bregawn (see below).
As you can see the selection box from the Sporting Life for the Sandown meeting where Desert Hero won was very limited and featured nowhere near the 20 tipsters previously mentioned (see below).
As you can see Desert Hero is not tipped by anyone in this selection box in the 2.15.
mtoto and
CheshamI too can't remember the selection box in the SCHB, but VDW was very specific that it was the selection box in the SCHB and not the box in the Sporting Life that was used to find Desert Hero; Gaye Brief; Badsworth Boy; and Bregawn (see below).
As you can see the selection box from the Sporting Life for the Sandown meeting where Desert Hero won was very limited and featured nowhere near the 20 tipsters previously mentioned (see below).
As you can see Desert Hero is not tipped by anyone in this selection box in the 2.15.
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Chesham
Sire
Hi
I too can't remember the selection box in the SCHB, but VDW was very specific that it was the selection box in the SCHB and not the box in the Sporting Life that was used to find Desert Hero; Gaye Brief; Badsworth Boy; and Bregawn (see below).
View attachment 39379
As you can see the selection box from the Sporting Life for the Sandown meeting where Desert Hero won was very limited and featured nowhere near the 20 tipsters previously mentioned (see below).
View attachment 39380
As you can see Desert Hero is not tipped by anyone in this selection box in the 2.15.
In that case it must just have been the Sporting Chronicle Staff that contributed to the Selection Box i.e. Split Second, Raceform Ratings, Speed Plus ETC
Bobajobber
Mare
VDW is also specific that it is about 20 tipsters too!!
Also I am sure the Newspaper is not the SCHB.
I have a copy of the SCHB from 1957 and it does not list the 'Summary Of Selections', so may of started sometime after
Also I am sure the Newspaper is not the SCHB.
I have a copy of the SCHB from 1957 and it does not list the 'Summary Of Selections', so may of started sometime after
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Bobajobber
Mare
It is easy to dismiss anything when you do not know anything about it, which I have said right from the beginning of my journey, in essence it is complicated, but understood you realise just how simple it is, but clever, like any GOOD rating , it takes time to compile, this is the HARD WORK aspect of the formula
Have to admit I don't really understand the above but I will try to answer. It isn't me that was saying the rating was flawed but VDW . If a race can't automatically be said to be a drop in class because it carries less prize money, logic say the more prize money can't automatically be a rise in class. This then has to bring the AR into doubt on occasions. I just asked what other think VDW would have used if/when this happened.
Be Lucky
mtotoSadly I am not going to grind this out with you, I have explained if the AR is flawed why would VDW offer it up in a letter called 'Van Der Wheil Spells It All Out' , I see nowhere that VDW says the AR is flawed, he shows it in most of the books and at least 10 years after the first time, so if it is FLAWED, why was it continually used, VDW "never wrote anything for the sake of it", plain and simply.
"For obvious reasons this is not foolproof, but at least it enables a better judgement to be made and usually it is unwise to stray from the top few"
You are misinterpreting what VDW said
" Most will be acquainted with the idea of looking for horses which are dropped in class. Often this is a race offering less prize money, but not necessarily so. The quality of horses engaged is more to the point."
VDW is warning us that prize money of the ACTUAL race does not always reflect the true quality of the field, PK's LTO race is a case in point - Class 6.
" You should not need to be reminded that the class against which a horse runs is not the same as the class of race in which they compete"
And this is just a reference to tell us that both class ratings given by VDW are to be kept separate as two lines of investigation.
I could spell this all out in a couple of paragraphs, but it would be as wasted task.
Good luck